What if Religion had admitted it was wrong? (Part 2)

Published on May 7, 2008 By Scotteh In Religion

In the first part of this article i discussed how people consider religion as a means of teaching us how to act responsibly.

I received some interesting comments, mostly about how how people felt they obtained their morality from sources other than religion. Perhaps the most interesting comment, and entirely unrelated was a comment from senior stubbyfinger, who informed us he had a large sexual organ. Congratulations stubby...

Right so Religion, morality, back on track. Lets look at the title of this article, "What if religion had admitted it was wrong?". Firstly i'd imagine we'll have some people asking how religion is wrong exactly. Which you know, if you've been sleeping under a rock since Darwin was around, is a highly appropriate question.

1)God made the world in 7 days Genisis etc.

The earth roughly 6,000 years old? I believe that's the figure provided by most creationists i speak with. Well we now know as a FACT (fact as in 1 + 1 = 2. You get me. FACT? Just like the fact you are going to die, just like the fact i'm mashing my keyboard with my fingers as a write this a not my toes - FACT), the earth is much older. The earth is around 4.5 Billion years old. It's difficult to compute exactly as due to the nature of how it was formed. The oldest rocks found to date are 3.9 Billion years old.

The obvious question to follow is 'How exactly did we get here?'. A puzzling question indeed answered by Darwin in his famous book 'Of the Origins of the Spieces'. I won't go into detail for fear of sending you to sleep and wanting to get to my point, but he believed small genetic mutations which happen every generation of a specicies led to how we developed from small microbes in to full fledged humans. Far fetched? What's even more far fetched is the serious amount of evidence that backs this up (galapagos!).

2)Christianity also said that the Earth was the center of the universe.

That the sun revolved around the earth. So when some bloke from tuscani said otherwise, they were quite unpleased! Even after proving that the observation of the planets and the sun suggested that Galleo (yes i'm talking about Galileo here, re the guy from tuscani not Pope Leo I) was right, they had the audacity to turn around and go 'No no no wait you misunderstand us! It may _LOOK_ like the earth orbits the sun, and maths may dictate it, but it infact doesn't! They just appear that way!'. Yes because that's a helpful approach in a reasonable discussion.

We now know of course that earth isn't the center of the universe and that we do revolve around the sun.

So there's two examples for people to consider why i personally think religion has been wrong in the past. On two MASSIVE issues.

Now if i may move on. What i'd like to consider is what if religion had turned around and said:

'You know what, were based on texts wrote thousand of years ago, when our understanding of the world was very different and people needed a different kind of reassurance. I think it's time we adapt a little more to society'.

I'd guess the next obvious question is what would you change? I'm not sure, i'm no council of nicaea. I dare say the word religion itself would need a reclassifcation. What is it? If it's not just a story about god and his son, is religion morality? Is it just faith in something?

I've always admired some of the charitable teachings in Islam and Christianity. Yet i also detest how they've been the cause of so many wars and suffering in the past. Do we need religion to do amazing things for one another?

One thing is for sure though while we are unable to prove that God isn't going to smite us all for not wearing condoms, someone should not have the power to continue the spread of aids in one of the most desperate continents in the world by saying using them is indeed sinful.

Nor should preachers be able to convince people to attach bombs on to themselves in the hope of a paradise waiting for them on the other side.

I hope i've not genuinley offended someone with this, well so long as your not offended by just the notion of someone questioning your religion, in which case your ignorant and i'm glad i've offended you.

Comments (Page 5)

lulapilgrim

on May 08, 2008

Lula posts:

scientific theory about origins tends to favor the Creationist version than the Evolutionist one.

Please do tell. What is this scientific theory that favors the Creationists' version?

As I've already outlined what the scientists have discovered about the Cambrian fossil record favors the Great Flood as described in Genesis.

Extensive sceintific evidence which is quite obvious in the sedimentary strata as well as land forms on earth today point to the Genesis flood and that's why it is ignored. It's not scientific to accept part of physical evidence in nature while ignoring another very large part.

Science has developed radiodating and Carbon-14, yet, because strata, fossil and radioactive evidence is useless, there is no reliable evidence of billions and millions of years for earth's history.

The following are from Gerard Keene's Creation Rediscovered.

The great variety and complexity of the solar system design defies iniformitarianism...how could the solar system like this arise from a big bang explosion?

Planets/moons dual rotation and their simultaneous opposite direction rotation suggests intentional Design rather than the results of explosions.

Janus & Epimetheus (satellites of Saturn on 30 miles apart) these two swap places every four years instead of colliding. I'd say they were programmed to behave this way by Creator GOd, to thwart uniformitarianism.

The so called SHepherd satellites accompanying rings of giant gas planets has such precise functioning is evidence of intentional Design and not of a random big bang explosion.

Explain how Pluto and it moon Charon spiral around a center of gravity which lies between them result from a big bang explosion?

Short period comets should not exist if the universe is billions of years old. Where is proven evidence for the "Oort Cloud"?

Earth's finely balanced distance from the sun is so delicately and precisely located to allow life on earth....simply good Evolutionistic fortune or designed by omnipotent Creator God?

Why are spiral galaxy arms not wound up if the universe is billions of years old?

Galaxies rotating in various localized directions would not result from a big bang explosion point, but are explicable in the Day 4 Creation scenario.

Entropy in the universe---time's arrow...pointing downward to disorder and eventual total loss of energy...the universe surely had a beginning.

Speed of light and vast distances in the universe....were stars and light waves created in nanoseconds throughout the universe? Is there a time warp in the universe, making possible vast distances within a "young" universe?

lulapilgrim

on May 08, 2008

Saying something is supernatural is claiming you know something you cannot possibly know. It is claiming you know what you don't know.

It's called having the gift of supernatural faith. That's why theology is the highest science. Think about it.

Scotteh

on May 09, 2008

I've provided a summary of lula's counter to my arguement, along with my own thoughts on the new issues raised here.

SetarcosNous

on May 09, 2008

can enlighten me as to how Evolution Theory explains gravity.

It doesn't, why should it? Does the bible tell me temperature at 1.325 atmospheric pressure at which water boils? Does it tell me how to search through an ordered set in log(n) steps? Why is it you think evolutionary theory should have an answer for everything, when it makes no claims to do so? Quit fighting a strawman.

Perhaps it's time for you to give your definition of ET.

life+time=new life

Actually, I think it's contrary to the truth to think the earth could have formed on its own over a long period of time.
Since there is no proof that it happened, it takes faith to believe it.

Actually, it runs contrary to your thousands year old book. There is no proof yesterday happened by your reasoning.
Here is a scenario:
You go away on vacation for a week, leaving your car at the airport. When you return, you find the end of your car facing the parking lot smashed in. Do you think:
A) a supernatural being came in and smacked it,
or

another vehicle hit it while you were gone?

One ET formula for making the universe

There is no evolutionary theory for making the universe

What I meant by the above is that Evolution Theory is an atheistic idea that attempts to explain [...] without God involved.

Like I say about atheism not being disbelief in god(s) but rather a lack of belief in them, evolutionary theory (like ALL sciences I might add) merely explains things without the need for god(s). It (again like ALL sciences) says nothing about the existence or non-existence of such beings, because by their "(super)nature" they are outside the realm of science.

What has happened is science is under the bond of atheism...

Science is inherently atheistic (or at very least agnostic), it is not "under the bond of atheism".

It's tendency is attempt to replace religious truth with an outlook on a universe where God no longer has any place.

I would substitute the word "truth" with "teachings" myself. The outlook does not leave "no place" for God, it just removes the necessity of him being there. Even then, one could claim it doesn't even go that far. While we know gravity holds things together, and dark energy might hold some things apart, we still can't say why either does what it does. It is possible, though completely unprovable, that gravity is nothing more (nor less) than the will of some god(s).

Again, still haven't shot it down, just disputed it; and in case no one has told you before, an argument from incredulity is not a valid one.

...I'm delighted to have you describe in detail exactly how humans evolved from apes....

Did I claim I could? No. Any explanation/evidence I could give would be feeble compared to what others like Zoo have already detailed to you. I was merely pointing out that you have not debunked anything as you claimed you had. I don't claim to have all the answers, nor does science. That is the domain of religion. Besides, for me to prove it to you, you would have to tell me what you would consider proof, and since you are unwilling/unable to do that, then that is a moot point.

Science has developed radiodating ... radioactive evidence is useless

I think the majority of the scientific community (not just evolutionary biologists), who I am sure understand such methods better that you, would disagree.

iniformitarianism

???

Planets/moons dual rotation and their simultaneous opposite direction rotation suggests intentional Design rather than the results of explosions.

How so?

Janus & Epimetheus (satellites of Saturn on 30 miles apart) these two swap places every four years instead of colliding. I'd say they were programmed to behave this way by Creator GOd...

I'd say if they were orbiting in a manner that caused a collision that we wouldn't be seeing them do this to have this discussion. If you put a shot glass outside when it is raining and some water gets in it, do think that is a miracle too?

The so called Shepherd satellites accompanying rings of giant gas planets has such precise functioning is evidence of intentional Design

What function would that be?

Explain how Pluto and it moon Charon spiral around a center of gravity which lies between them

All objects with such interactions orbit around a center of gravity. As some post I read before somewhere tried to salvage an argument against a heliocentric solar system put it, heavily paraphrased, "technically the Earth doesn't orbit around the Sun, they both orbit a point at the middle of their combined center of gravity". The thing is, when items are staggeringly different sizes, the center of gravity is usually still inside (and near the center of) the larger of the two. In the Pluto-Charon case, if I am not mistaken, their masses aren't all that different.

Earth's finely balanced distance from the sun is so delicately and precisely located to allow life on earth...

Yes, and if it weren't, we wouldn't be having this discussion...or we'd be completely different beings thinking that life couldn't possibly evolve on planets that are the distance ours actually is from the sun.

Galaxies rotating in various localized directions would not result from a big bang explosion point

And you know this how?

Entropy in the universe---time's arrow...pointing downward to disorder and eventual total loss of energy...the universe surely had a beginning.

Again, your point?

Speed of light and vast distances in the universe....were stars and light waves created in nanoseconds throughout the universe? Is there a time warp in the universe, making possible vast distances within a "young" universe?

That's something required by young earth creationists to explain our ability to see stars/light sources that are more that 6000 light years from earth.

It's called having the gift of supernatural faith. That's why theology is the highest science.

Faith is not knowledge, it is at best belief. Theology is not the highest science, it is not even science. Do you even understand the ideas behind science?

lulapilgrim

on May 09, 2008

Lula posts:

I am aware of the way the world works...like all the laws of nature, Almighty God made gravity. If you disagree, perhaps you can enlighten me as to how Evolution Theory explains gravity.

If you think it preposterous that the earth could have formed on its own over a long period of time, and that some supernatural force just willing it into existence is a more likely explanation, then you apparently aren't aware of the way the world works. You see, one of the ways it "works" is gravity, which will "work" on you whether you believe in it or not.

Lula posts:

can enlighten me as to how Evolution Theory explains gravity.

SETARCOSNOUS POSTS:

It doesn't, why should it?

Well, when you consider the context of the discussion, my question is reasonable. There are two schools of thought as to the origin of the universe and all that's in it including gravity.

One is Creation which teaches God made all the laws of nature including gravity and the other is Evolution Theory which teaches everything over a long period of time made itself....
thus my question.

Perhaps it's time for you to give your definition of ET.

life+time=new life

So does this mean dog plus time equals cat? or ape plus time equals humans?

Actually, I think it's contrary to the truth to think the earth could have formed on its own over a long period of time.
Since there is no proof that it happened, it takes faith to believe it.

Actually, it runs contrary to your thousands year old book.

If here, you are referring to the Holy Bible, I'd say that that Genesis (which has God as it's principal Author working through the human writer) offers an explanation of how the earth was formed that science has in many ways confirmed not contradicted...It takes faith to believe that the Holy Bible is the inerrant Word of God. Evolution Theory postulates the earth formed by itself over billiions of years by random chance yet has offered no proof of that. Since there is no proof, it take faith to believe in ET.

There is no proof yesterday happened by your reasoning.

yes, there is becasue yesterday happened in measurable real time.

Whereas the origin of the universe and all that's in it happened when no one of us were around....God is the only eye-witness and He is very trustworthy as He cannot deceive or be deceived.

There is no evolutionary theory for making the universe

Ever hear of the Big Bang or Stellar Evolution theories?

SetarcosNous

on May 09, 2008

Once again, for the umpteenth time, that is not evolutionary theory.
(wishing for an animated smiley of head hitting brick wall, I know I've seen them out there.)

So does this mean dog plus time equals cat?

Possibly, but more likely (more "generic" mammal)+time+(different survival pressures) = dog and cat

Genesis ... offers an explanation how the earth was formed that science has in many ways confirmed not contradicted

If science didn't contradict it, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

It takes faith to believe that the Holy Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

Which is why I say one must have faith in a book before one has faith the god whose existence it supposedly reveals.

Evolution Theory postulates the earth formed by itself over billions of years by random chance yet has offered no proof of that.

Again, this is not a part of evolutionary theory, and the theories of earth formation have little to do with random chance. They have to do with things like the laws of gravity causing the sun to catch stray matter traveling through the galaxy and simple logic dictating that things in unstable or colliding orbits will not stay in such a state for long.

There is no proof yesterday happened by your reasoning.

yes, there is because yesterday happened in measurable real time.

Did it? Prove it to me. Keep in mind that you could be remembering things wrong. Perhaps some supernatural being implanted memories in you and I to think yesterday happened. Heck, maybe the whole universe was created by this being 1 minute ago and I didn't even really type the first half of this post. So, seriously, since we cannot use time travel to go back to yesterday and observe it, how can we prove it happened? How do we "measure" yesterday?

God is the only eye-witness and He is very trustworthy as He cannot deceive or be deceived.

According to your old book written by people that thought thunder, lightning, sickness, etc... were signs of some supernatural being's temper tantrums.

There is no evolutionary theory for making the universe

Ever hear of the Big Bang or Stellar Evolution theories?

The big bang is in no way evolutionary theory; and to speak of theories related to the development of stars (even if such theories could be described as evolutionary) as "Evolutionary Theory", when the general assumption of all readers will be to think of "Evolutionary Theory" as it pertains to the origins of species, is borderline intellectually dishonest. You seem to be trying to lump together disparate parts of science in order to make a broader target to hit, and even then the best you can come up with is an argument from incredulity or ignorance(in the formal logic sense). The OP made no mention of evolution in the species sense of it, yet you seem determined to somehow bring that into the discussion and when are called on it proceed to move the goal posts to some other "evolution".

If you are unable to accept the logical explanations for the formation of the earth and stars, then you cannot honestly accept statements of anything that occurred before your first memory.

Still waiting for what you would consider proof of evolution in any sense of the word.

lulapilgrim

on May 09, 2008

[/quote]

So, seriously, since we cannot use time travel to go back to yesterday and observe it, how can we prove it happened?

God gave us something called an intellect with which we can think and reason. With these we can be certain that yesterday happened.

SanChonino

on May 12, 2008

God gave us something called an intellect with which we can think and reason. With these we can be certain that yesterday happened.

No you can't. You've deluded yourself into believing that this esoteric concept of 'yesterday' exists.

You cannot, under any circumstances, prove that yesterday exists. If your best rebuttal is 'I think it exists, therefore it does', you've proven nothing.

If the simple fact that you imagine something exists was enough, I would imagine a million dollars under my bed right now.

Didn't happen.

MYTH BUSTED!

SanChonino

on May 12, 2008

Besides, none of you really exist anyway. You're all just constructs of MY mind, the only thing that truly exists.

What a great, great freakin' video.

lulapilgrim

on May 12, 2008

God gave us something called an intellect with which we can think and reason. With these we can be certain that yesterday happened.

No you can't. You've deluded yourself into believing that this esoteric concept of 'yesterday' exists.

I know that objective truth exists and that God has created human beings giving us a specific nature, namely we are made in the image of God. Just as the laws of nature clearly have objective existence, objective truth can be shown to exist. I am in possession of objective truth when I say that we can be certain that yesterday happened.

The root meaning of existence stands for presence or being present or appearance of something in any category whether this be in nature as material existence or in mind where it is known as ideal existence.

I know yesterday existed becasue I existed yesterday. In saying this I am preeminently exerting an actualization of reality.

SanChonino

on May 12, 2008

I know yesterday existed becasue I existed yesterday.

You still can't prove it. That entire reply was a bunch of flowery nothingness.

You cannot under any circumstances prove that yesterday exists. Heck, you can't even prove to me that YOU exist.

Because you don't. I just made you up to hurt myself.

SetarcosNous

on May 12, 2008

I know yesterday existed because I existed yesterday.

Generously assuming a perfect and infallible human memory, how can you "know" the days before you were born ever happened?

Heck, you can't even prove to me that YOU exist. Because you don't. I just made you up to hurt myself.

Oh man that is hilarious...I am glad a created you.

lulapilgrim

on May 12, 2008

Generously assuming a perfect and infallible human memory, how can you "know" the days before you were born ever happened?

I trust my parents, my family, the greater community, and finally society itself whose public records make it all a part of history.

SanChonino

on May 12, 2008

I trust my parents, my family,

These are the people who lied to you constantly as a child. Easter bunny, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, where babies come from . . . and those are the people you're trusting about whether or not things existed? What if they're as delusional as yourself?

finally society itself whose public records make it all a part of history.

History is the most subjective thing on the planet. There is NO SUCH THING as objective history. So history is also delusional about the existence of time past - since nothing existed before myself, in 1983. Everything that supposedly happened before is simply a construct of my fertile mind.

lulapilgrim

on May 12, 2008

I trust my parents, my family,

These are the people who lied to you constantly as a child.

SC,

I shall not respond to any more of your "off the wall" comments such as these latest ones.

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